Apr 24, 2015

Still Talking about Romance

Continuing an actual conversation between a young single man and woman begun in Talking about Romance and Talking about Romance Again. (Used with permission.)


Chapter 1

She
I feel like I am questioning my sanity—and if I am even interested and all that—every two seconds.

He
That sounds tiring.

She
It is. Honestly, I have discovered that I don't know how to date. I only know how to be friends.

He
Yeah, it is a muddy business.

She
Is it supposed to be this confusing? Am I over thinking it? Or is this a sign that this just isn’t meant to be?

He
No. Maybe. I am not sure. Real relationship takes willful courage to grow toward intimacy. So partly it is your choice. But it is also his choice. And then there seems to definitely be some mysterious aspect of God in the mix. The challenging reality is that both you and God could see the potential in such a relationship; however, the other person could still choose to ignore or reject that. Does that make sense?

She
Yes.

He
What is absolutely certain is that at some point a relationship is hard. At what point that first real mountain appears, however, seems to be quite subjective.

She
It seems that everyone else other than me gets it. It seems easier for them, and I am just over here, like, "I am not good at this” and “I am confused."

He
I suspect that many people do not "get it," but rather just accept shallower structures or paths, or focus on immediate happiness at the neglect of really considering long-term intimacy. It seems that many people become disillusioned or too selfish in their relationship, unwilling to fight for it, but too often in the midst of a marriage or family dynamic. Hence there are so many divorces—or, somewhat contrarily, so many people living together without really committing to life with each other. In other words, too many people accept a mediocre more self-oriented standard that ultimately proves empty. Right?


Chapter 2

She
So, I am still talking with him.

He
You mean that you are still undecided?

She
I think I do feel undecided, and I feel uncertain. Also, I would like to hang out with him again and really see.

He
Do you have a potential date to do so?

She
Yes, the end of this month.

He
In the meantime, are you keeping in touch regularly?

She
Yep. We text every day and talk on the phone at least once a week, but usually more. (Like way more.)

He
Impressive.

She
Do you think it is normal to still feel so uncertain?

He
Considering your circumstances, sure. I think certainty/uncertainty is very relative.

She
Can you explain that?

He
I mean that I do not really think that there is a universal standard when it comes to the normalcy or otherwise of your still feeling uncertain at this point. Considering your circumstances, it seems to me pretty normal to still be uncertain, though.

She
Got it.


Chapter 3

She
So, he asked to move our date out a week yesterday. I had/have no emotional reserve for this sort of request, and just started crying.

He
I am sorry. That is definitely not what you need right now.

She
Yes, it's a legit request, and he just didn't know why it would be so upsetting. Disappointing yes, but not cry worthy. I think I should book an appointment with you to talk about this whatever thing I am in. I seriously feel like I go back and forth on it so much.

He
Ha. This "Whatever Thing." Code for a "Ambivalationship" or "Awkwardlationship."

She
Yes, exactly. "Ambivalationship" is the perfect word. Also, I have to say, part of this journey for me is really learning who those people are who I can talk to about this, and who push me to be better and don't push me to react out of fear.

He
I am glad that I can be one of those people.


Chapter 4

She
I think I might end things with him. I like talking to him, and there are things I really like about him, but I don't really get the feeling that he really sees ME or wants to be with me. Do you think three months is really enough time to determine that? Or am I being too antsy?

He
Three months and a lot of interaction, right?

She
Or maybe what I am really seeing is that I think I want something different. We talk on the phone a lot.

He
I think that three months is plenty of time. If you are not inspired to keep investing in the relationship, it is probably that you do want something different. Each of us should only really be in a relationship where the other person pretty clearly wants to be with us, to know us—to see us.

She
Yes. I agree with this, and that is when I get confused. I mean, he called me most days.

He
Hmm. Why do you think that he does not see you?

She
I mean, seriously most of the time he calls. I take that as a little interest, but I don't really think it is enough, and that is where I can't tell if I just need to calm down or move on—because a lot of times the conversation is about him.

He
I understand how that could be tiring.

She
At lest it feels that way. Maybe not totally true. Also, and I realize this may sound totally girly, but he never compliments me.

He
That is not girly. We all need encouragement.

She
Like he never says "I enjoy talking to you." or "Wow! That was a bold move," or really anything like that.

He
If you had to decide right now whether to keep investing in the relationship or not, what is your first response?

She
Not. I will miss him, but really no. I don't see things changing. I think I just don't know how to tell him.

He
You probably need to move on then. It feels sad to have invested so much already, but in a way it is not too much. If you sense the promise of feeling freer in your moving on then you need to take the step. There is no easy way of communicating that to him. You just need to begin by telling him how you feel, but also leaving space for him to respond to that before you completely leave the relationship.

She
I guess I also question if I gave him enough feedback to help him know what I needed.

He
Maybe.

She
But then I think, "We are not in a relationship. He has been slow to decide that," so then I don't feel I really have an opening to say something.

He
Yes and no. That is the nature of an ambivalationship, isn't it?

She
So true.

He
I would say to not worry about whether you have an opening or not. We need more brave honesty in relationships.

She
I agree. Vulnerability, honesty, bravery—ALL things I am trying to work on and be better at.

He
Here is your chance to grow in that.

She
I think what is frustrating is that with each experience I feel I am growing and becoming better (not perfect, but a little better) at these relationship things. But in reality, I feel discouraged because I don't see really good men out there who fit with me.

He
I understand.

She
And the more I grow, the gap feels wider.

He
I agree.

She
And I am happy to grow. I would rather grow than not. But it just feels so weird—weird to grow into a place where I am (in a little way) more disconnected and discouraged.

He
Part of that is influenced by societal and church pressure to be married really young, so that we feel like we missed something or are late, etc.

She
I think that is partly true and partly my own dating experience.

He
It is about trusting the journey that God has each of us on. Do you feel like you grow closer to God through these challenges?

She
Um, in a way yes. I feel more resolved, a little clearer on my life path. But again, it is also deeply discouraging to feel I am getting better for something God might not have for me.

He
Most people define themselves by their marital status. I seek to cling to an identity that transcends that—something deeper, more lasting that begins with God and His Kingdom. It is easy to define oneself as "I am single" or “I am married” rather than "I am a leader", "I am an artist," etc. Both even those are extrinsic. Perhaps it is about clinging to something intrinsic: "I am an ambassador of the Kingdom of Heaven", "I am free", "I am aware." I am not sure. Those are some recent thoughts that are giving me a lot to consider about identity.

She
I like these thoughts.

He
Contrarily, though, the Bible suggests that we are made needing other people, to be defined by community to some extent.

She
So, there has to be a balance in there somewhere.


Chapter 5

She
So . . . I totally had a text conversation with him last night.

He
How did you feel after the conversation?

She
Still like I like him.

He
Does he seem to be making some of the conclusions that you need?

She
Interestingly, yes. I mean, I haven't expressed my conclusions to him. But last night he paid me three unsolicited compliments.

He
Do you feel encouraged by this?

She
I do. I mean, I don't understand why he would do that. But I think he is still processing things, and I want to give him the space to do that.

He
Well, that is admirable of you. I cannot say that I know of another woman giving a man that chance. Though it is predicated on your still being interested in him to some degree.

She
Do you think I am being unwise?

He
No, I think that it is admirable.

She
Thank you. I think I struggle with that idea—that I am not doing things the "right way" and that I "shouldn't talk to him" because I ended things.

He
The idea that there is a "right way" is very deceptive. And confusing. And generally rubbish—in my opinion.

She
Maybe I am confusing myself. Maybe I am setting myself up for heartbreak. I don' t know. I just know that I know what would be needed to keep going forward, and until that isn't there, a little part of me is still in this.

He
So there is enough there to keep you going? That is important to recognize.

She
And I guess, I am in a way trying to practice loving a person. Not romantically, but like, in an “I want what is best for you” way.

He
Loving someone is always risking heartbreak. In fact, it probably guarantees it. But heartbreak is not a permanent state, or need not be, nor is it always unhealthy. It can grow us stronger. It is about exposing and being aware of one's vulnerability. Only by recognizing that can we truly live in freedom.

She
I guess I keep wondering if it is wise to invest in someone in this way when I really have no certainty of the outcome. But in a way, I feel like this is beyond my control.

He
We are all vulnerable. We are all afraid. We cannot control the outcome. We can only trust—first God, above all, because He is the only perfect, reliable power. For trust is absolutely necessary in love.

She
Yes.

He
In human-human relationship, we can choose to protect ourselves, to "keep control" by never stepping out into the real wilderness, the real struggle, of love. Or we can step out into it, struggle through it, fail at times, grow, and come out of it with a realer awareness of security and safety and trust. But we have to step outside and risk everything to really understand that. There is no other way.

She
Yes. I enjoy talking with you, friend. I think it helps to voice things that I think or struggle to understand.

He
I am glad that I am one you feel comfortable processing through the messiness with. And it certainly is messy. Messy and uncertain.

She
Yes, totally. I mean, you aren't the only one, but I think your perspective is refreshing.

He
I am glad. That is what true friendship and community are about: processing with different people, gaining from the wealth of experience that only a community can provide.

She
Agreed!

5 comments:

Katha said...

This was an interesting read! I think it's good to have conversations with the other gender about such topics, I have benefitted the most in this regard from talking with others.
I especially liked this quote: "Most people define themselves by their marital status. I seek to cling to an identity that transcends that—something deeper, more lasting that begins with God and His Kingdom. It is easy to define oneself as "I am single" or “I am married” rather than "I am a leader", "I am an artist," etc." This is so true, even though it is tough and a real challenge, as you said. But I am glad that singleness offers this perspective and "training field". The question is, how do we learn to define ourselves that way? It seems easy to "just" enter into a relationship or get married, then you can define in relation to that other person. But how do you learn to define yourself as a child of God, a leader, an artist when there is no obvious person to help you with it (which can be a blessing and burden at the same time)? It sounds a little complicated, but this is a challenge I wondered about.

J.D. Grubb said...

Great question, Katha. Thanks. As our identity is primarily influenced by external sources, it is indeed complicated. As a starting point to addressing the question, "What is Identity?", consider what I wrote earlier at http://jdgrubb.blogspot.com/2014/03/what-is-identity.html.

I am happy to take the conversation from there, if you like. For example, I am not sure what you mean by learning how to define yourself when there is no obvious person to help you with it?

Ramona said...

Thanks for sharing. I totally get it!

Katha said...

Sorry, I somehow didn't come back here until now, so I'm late with my reply...
Interesting read on identity, I agree that we go in circles and try all kinds of things until we end up with God again.

What I meant earlier points in a similar direction. In order to know more about ourselves we often refer to ourselves in relation to others. I am a husband, wife, mother, father, daughter, sister, grandmother, friend, employee...I am xyz because someone else is something else. Or we define ourselves by what we do: I am a worker, teacher, craftsman, preacher, builder...
What fascinates me about God is his I AM. Period. He is he within himself, in no dependent relationship to human beings, with no pressure to do something in order to be someone. Of course, we are not God, but if we conclude that our identity should ultimately finds its home in God again, how do come back and define ourselves as human BEINGS and not doings or in any kind of relation to others?

J.D. Grubb said...

Thank you for the additional thoughts, Katha. Your ultimate question at the end is profound. I wish that I had a clear answer, but I wrestle with the idea as well. For example, if we are called to die to self, to surrender our identities to God, then does that not leave us little more than shadows of human beings? Of course, I suspect that the sacrificial language of Biblical writers is more nuanced than that. But it does still befuddle the mind at times.

Thank you for the conversation.